I received this 2010 Hobie Mirage Revolution Angler version new from Austin Canoe & Kayak in late March 2010, and have spent the nearly 3 months since slowly rigging the boat with turbo fins, sailing rudder, anchor trolley, bow lacing, accessory bar with FF/GPS mount and rod holder, battery mount with marine power plug, transducer mount, rudder cable stays (rather than the half-assed, half attached pad-eyes Hobie used - but that's another story).
I started suspecting something was not right with the boat about a month ago while prepping for a freshwater trip. While practice loading the boat on the Thule Glide & Set carriers for the first time, I noticed how thin the hull bottom plastic was and how much the bottom of the hull flexed. The rear "glide" pads of the carrier were astern of the warp and I moved them very far apart until they rode on the curve of the hull because I found the excessive hull flex alarming. The kayak has been stored just like the Ocean Kayak Trident 13 Angler before it, in a closed garage, on a large Wheelez cart with no straps nor bungees attached. The cart cross members do not correspond to the location of the hull warp. The weather up here in WA state has definitely not been hot since receiving the boat.
I decided to investigate whether the boat had a problem a couple of weeks ago after having the boat out on the salt and hearing a lot of hull slap in the swells and chop. (The Twist-n-Stow rudder also failed, but that is another story.) I finally posted these photos on NW Kayak Anglers Forum and Hawaii's AquaHunters kayak fishing forum. The unanimous opinion was I had some serious hull warpage.
To say I am disappointed would be a gross understatement. I contacted Hobie Cat and was brushed off and told to contact my retail vendor. I purchased from a great vendor, Austin Canoe & Kayak in Austin, TX, the same vendor from which I got the OK T13A, and I hope they continue their stellar customer service. Hobie Cat sure has a lot to learn about customer service. If Hobie honors the warranty, I'll need to do all the alternations over again. The delay involved in replacing the boat will cut into prime fishing season. This is not a happy camper.
Below are excerpted posts from a Hobie Cat online forum to which I posted my hull warp travails. mmiller (Matt Miller) and Jbernier are Hobie representatives and website administrators. I think it is a very interesting read. Apparently Hobie is okay with their boats performing in this way. I posted my problem to three online forums, and here are links to the entire threads. Free registration is required for AquaHunters:
Hobie Community
Northwest Kayak Anglers - OR, WA, ID, BC
Aqua Hunters Forum - Hawai'i
I received the boat in April - 3 months ago. It has been stored just like the OK T13A before it, in a closed garage resting on a large Wheelez cart without straps nor bungees supporting only its own weight. The cart cross members do not correspond to the location of the warp. It has been carried only a few times on a truck rack with Thule Glide & Set carriers. The rear "glide" pads of the carrier are astern of the warp, and I moved the "glide" pads on the carrier very far apart until they ride on the curve of the hull because the plastic of the bottom of the hull was so thin and flexed so much I found it alarming.
The weather here in WA state has not been warm. It has been unseasonably cold since I received the boat.
Hobie Cat brushed me off and said to deal with my retail vendor, ACK, and I have started the process. Has anyone else experienced this? Links to photos:
http://www.demonick.com/kayak/Stern.Hul ... r.1024.jpg http://www.demonick.com/kayak/Stern.Hul ... e.1024.jpg
I would not say we "brushed this off"... We always refer consumers to their dealer for any issues after the sale.
From the photos I'd say this is not a molding defect. By the looks of it, it has been compressed by something.
Fyi... we do not recommend leaving a kayak on a cart for storage. The manual outlines proper storage.
You may be able to push this out. Using a towel drapped over the area and hot water. Then some pressure from the inside.________________Matt Miller Hobie Cat USA
I am finding the acceptance of this defect rather disturbing, and it is not just here but on other kayaking forums too. The defect may not be in manufacturing. It may be the design - the hull is too thin. Somehow Hobie and other plastic boat manufacturers have convinced the marketplace this sort of failure is acceptable. I don't agree. No one buys a Hobie Mirage Revolution because it weighs 58 pounds rather than 62 pounds. They buy it for the superb engineering and performance of the mirage drive. A few more pounds of plastic would only make the product better.
I have led a customer support group for a couple of decades. I have dealt with a lot of vendors, a lot of products, and a lot of customers. When we work in any industry or market space we gain experience in the industry which translates into knowledgeable expectations. That is, experienced customers have a much narrower range of potential behaviors and a narrower range of expectations. While it is important for a product to meet the expectations of experienced customers, it is as important or more important to meet the reasonable expectations/assumptions of naive customers. This is because most of a product's potential market share and product sales growth comes from customers with no experience. A product's future is in its heretofore "naive" customers. This is the definition of "expanding the marketplace".
"Reasonable" is often hard to define, but like pornography, one can generally recognize it when one sees it. Should a consumer class laptop computer be hardened against being run over by a vehicle? While people do run over their laptops, most people would not expect a consumer level laptop to survive such treatment. What about dropping? It would probably depend on from how high. Off a coffee-table and onto a carpet? Absolutely. Off the top of a moving car? No so much. I think it is reasonable to expect a consumer class laptop to survive a 3 foot fall onto a carpet. Certainly if the laptop was damaged in such a fall I would be annoyed. On the other hand if it slipped out of my hand and landed on concrete and sustained major damage, I would feel responsible.
As a relatively naive customer I expect a plastic kayak, under reasonable storage conditions (covered and cool) to not deform. I suggest Hobie add a few pounds of plastic to the bottom of the hull of their Revo, astern of the live well scuppers.
I would have to say that most consumers are interested in the product being light as possible, so adding weight to accomodate storage in a way that we advise against... doesn't make sense to me.
We clearly advise in our manual against storage on a cart or laying on the bottom. We advise to store on their sides or upside down on the hard rails. This is because we know what happens when you point load the soft underbelly of a hull for a period of time. This is the "nature of the beast" with rotomolded plastics.
Please attempt the suggested corrections or contact your dealer for assistance. Then store the kayak as described in the manual to aviod future issues of this kind._________________Matt Miller Hobie Cat USA
It would take more than 3lbs - the issue is not that small, large flat surfaces don't get the thickness you get in ridges and deck shapes - due to the way plastic flows inside the mold during the cooking process. This is not as simple a fix as I think that you imagine it being.
As long as the kayak gets stored as prescribed in our literature - its never an issue.
This hull looks to me as though it would be a pretty straight forward reversal - just using boiling hot water and air pressure - I've personally fixed hulls that were way more severely dented (caused by a number of reasons, not just from storing them right-side-up on their bottoms) and had very good results. The end look of the hull will be again a 1st quality. I travel a fair bit to shows - and I'll arrive sometimes to a shipment of kayak hulls that were dented due to load shift in the truck - and I've always gotten them to be good to put on display and ultimately sell as a new product without any ill effect.
I'd be more than happy to help with your repair attempt off the board directly - feel free to e mail me (contact details are below)
We're all committed to helping you get back out on the water - helping customer resolve issues is what we do here - so let us help you, like to get you back out enjoying your kayak and off the computer, because it's summer time!!!!
If this is such a common occurrence, why can no one entertain the thought that it is a design deficiency?
We have a great reputation about covering defect issues with warranty, so many of the guys will think (if its a warranty issue) we will take care of it, but this hull is not defective due to materials or workmanship. This has been dented by something. It can not deform like this for any other reason. This being the case... it's not a warranty issue. Once again, try the corrections that we have outlined in this thread to pop it back out._____________Matt Miller Hobie Cat USA
Demonick,
I understand why you're upset. What I don't understand is why you haven't fixed the boat yet. Both MMiller, and Jbernier are Site admin's, so I'm assuming that they both work for Hobie, and they've both tried to tell you how to fix the boat. That's not getting "brushed off" by Hobie, that's outstanding customer service. There aren't many industries who offer to help the way that jbernier did even though it's not a warranty issue.
The standard procedure with any Hobie issue is to go to the dealer first. That's why they sent you there. When you came to the forum, you had two employees offer what knowledge they could to fix the issue.
You should be out enjoying the fixed boat by now! Like I said, I get that you're upset, but it sounds like it's not a warranty issue, so do what you can to fix the boat, and then get out there and enjoy it. The summer is too short as it is!
I think it's time to stop trying to get things covered under warranty, and just get the boat fixed so that it looks and works like new.
Neither MMiller nor JBernier brushed me off. They have both been as helpful as they could be. My first email contact with Hobie felt like a brushoff and I would suggest Hobie do a bit of training in that regard. A simple email template would be sufficient. I would even help them write it. When dealing with customers perception is reality.
Also, no where did I state I thought it was a warranty issue, though that was my first reaction. It may still be a warranty issue but the only way to determine that is through non-destructive testing of the hull thickness in the affected area. I am looking into it. Hobie does not believe me when I state I have not abused the boat. I am not new to plastic kayaks and I have had absolutely no issues with my T13. What I do suspect is that my problem with the Revo is due to a DESIGN flaw. In that case replacing the boat will change nothing. My point in posting here was two-fold. First to determine if Hobie thought it was a warranty issue. Second, and this is a separate issue from my own, was to try and convince Hobie that it was reasonable of a new customer to expect to be able to store their boat on a well padded cart without straps in a cool covered location without damage. Basically, Hobie's position is ANY hull down storage of the boat is abuse. By that definition I would guess most Hobie owners are abusing their boats. (Check out the Caddilyaks subforum on AquaHunters forum for examples.) I think that is an unreasonable position and is the result of a product design flaw. A smart manufacturer would adjust one's product to the expectations of an expanding marketplace. That was my ultimate point, and it was meant to be helpful. It is advice from someone who has been in a customer service business over 20 years. Customers do the damnedest things. When a large portion or a majority of your customers have expectations different from the manufacturer's, it may be time for a design modification. This is the process by which fishing kayaks came to be. It is simple product evolution.
The fact that I have not yet had the opportunity to try and fix the boat is irrelevant to the issues I raised. In the interim if I had the time to kayak fish I could just use my T13. However, a combination of weather (little sunshine in western WA) and scheduling (work/travel) has prevented me from trying the black plastic/sunny day and/or hair dryer tricks on the Revo. I would rather not try pouring a few gallons of boiling water over the hull until safer alternatives have been explored. I have located local sources of high density closed-cell foam to keep the boat in the proper shape once fixed. I also have an aviation inner tube off a small plane that may work even better/easier than the foam. Unfortunately this coming weekend I am on an ocean salmon powerboat trip. When time allows fixing the Revo is my highest priority.
The issue has been resolved.
We have had a run of sunny weather here which coincided with some time off. When I got the Revo out of the garage and upside down on the lawn I found the hull had mostly returned to its original profile. I covered it with a layer of black plastic and let it sit a few hours.
I had a small aircraft inner tube available so I flipped the boat over and stuffed the deflated inner tube into the rear hatch, positioning it flat just forward of the edge of the hatch. I inflated it with a hand pump until the hull profile was relatively normal. It provides a good support for the hull in the sensitive area behind the live well scuppers. At a later time I may replace the inner tube with some closed cell foam or a different shaped air bag.